Christmas Day

I haven't posted in a while because I've been busy at college. (I have wasted time browsing through pic dumps, also my mod powers are being exercised frequently)

Anyway I want all of your opinions on the holidays in general. Should Christians be able to complain about Christmas no longer being about Jesus? Feel free to rant about not getting your Easy Bake Oven or your G.I. Joe as well.

christmas who wants to sit on santas lap

  • gemie89
  • December 13, 2011, 7:11 pm
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  • 3

    --*open threadHijack
    --*Thread Hijack in progress
    I'm going to change the subject around here and focus on beliefs rather than holidays. I'm not going to say religion is bullshit or anything like that, so don't get butthurt. What do you think really happens after you die? You don't know. You can't know. WE can't know. It's not possible for us as human beings to understand or comprehend God/afterlife or anything related to those things. Because we can't fully understand it, we provide our own explanations for it. Human nature basically requires us to find an explanation regardless of how outlandish it may be, therefore, we take religion and apply it to our lives in the hope of creating that explanation. When someone says they're atheist, they still have a "religion" which is atheism, the belief that God does not exist. The people who entirely do not have religion are the ones who realize that the ideas religion is based around are not understandable and they have chosen to accept that. I would not call them atheist, I would call them enlightened because THEY are the ones who are going to look for an explanation that doesn't rely on faith and what your peers tell you is right. The enlightened man would still celebrate the religious holidays not because of religious ties, but because of what the holiday represents as a whole. Atheists would choose to shun anything about religion out of their lives because they don't want to think they have any kind of delusions.
    --end "Body"
    --*end program

    • Disco
    • December 13, 2011, 9:58 pm
    I was with you right up until you said atheism is a religion. It's not. I won't get into why this is, as it's been explain over and over in the past by atheists far more articulate than me.

    Instead, I'll just give you this clever little metaphor that someone told me, to spark a thought: "If atheism is a religion, then 'off' is a TV channel."

    Granted, your comment is pretty anti-atheist (aatheist?) anyway, but I think it's really because you don't quite understand what an atheist is. We don't claim to understand how the universe came to be. Sure, there are some among us who do, although not as fervently as their religious opponents. We accept that there is a lot about the universe that no one understands.

    The unique thing about atheism is that we haven't given up. We don't look at a mysterious universe and say, "Well, I don't understand it. It must be magic." That's religion; giving up and making shit up. We also don't say, "Well, I have a theory of how this happened, I must be right." Again, these bullshitters do infiltrate our ranks, but we usually ridicule their stupidity.

    Now that we've cleared up the delusion that atheism is somehow a religion, let's move on to Christmas. Christmas is not a Christian holiday. It never was. That's right. Don't believe me? Well, originally, December 25th was celebrated as a Pagan holiday (I could look up what for, but I don't feel like it). Eventually the Catholic church declared the date to be "Christ Mass" and celebrated it as the birth of Christ, even though (if Jesus existed) he was born in a different part of the year. Also, wreaths are based in Wiccan tradition, and decorating trees comes from the Druids.

    So, yes, I celebrate Christmas. I celebrate that it's a holiday where so many religious groups come together (although one likes to take all the credit (I'm looking at you, manger-baby)), but I mainly celebrate it as a time to remember peace, joy, and togetherness. Also, it's a federal holiday now anyway, not a religious one. Checkmate, religion. We got Christmas in the divorce.

    Edit: It was originally the birth of the sun god. Credit to Legacy.

    Edit again: Those of us who aren't set in our evolutionary/big bang ways are technically agnostic atheists. It basically means we don't claim to understand god, but also don't believe in god. This may sound contradictory, but replace "god" with "unicorns" and you'll see it makes sense. You don't have to understand something ridiculous to know it's ridiculous.
    - Ertrov December 14, 2011, 12:23 am
    I agree Christmas should be a time to remember peace, joy, and togetherness. I think world wide holidays with this massage does more for peace than war.
    - Legacy December 14, 2011, 1:05 am
    I'll articulate atheism for you because, why the hell not?:

    People believe things under the basis that there evidence to support it. There isn't any irrefutable evidence to support the existence of god. This makes it a question of faith. If you have none, by default you are an atheist. You aren't assuming you have an answer or an ideology. It's quite the opposite. You don't know how the universe came to be, therefore you don't assume god did it or that he even exists.

    In other words if someone asks if you know there is a god, you'll probably say "No." With that being the case, if someone asks if you believe in god, your answer is probably "No."
    - CrazyJay December 14, 2011, 3:21 pm
    Exactly, thank you. The burden of proof is on religion, not atheism.
    - Ertrov December 14, 2011, 3:23 pm
  • 3

    I am a Christian. So my views will be biased.

    After much thought, I think celebrating the birth of Jesus of Nazareth is good but celebrating his death/resurrection is much more important. I think the bible does not record what his birth is. This verse has got me to thinking too.
    Deuteronomy 12:29-32"When the LORD your God cuts off from before you the nations which you go to dispossess, and you displace them and dwell in their land, take heed to yourself that you are not ensnared to follow them, after they are destroyed from before you, and that you do not inquire after their gods, saying, 'How did these nations serve their gods? I also will do likewise.' 'You shall not worship the LORD your God in that way';"

    Being a Christian, it actually feels wrong to celebrate Jesus's birthday on 25 December because it's a pagan holiday known as Saturnalia, which commemorated the birth of the sun god.

    I think children learning the concept of giving is good one to learn no matter what religion you are. That lesson of giving can lead to serving. That could lead to fixing problems like teenage suicide and homelessness; problems that can be prevented by the help of others. But the giving we teach now is just an excuse to buy things. From experience, seeing a smile on someones face from helping them has brought me more happiness than getting some gift that I could have gotten any other day if I saved money from my job.

    I think that we should let actual religious and cultural holidays, like Hanukkah and Kwanzaa, should stay. They celebrate something that was started out of good purpose. I've heard rumors that Christmas was started by the Catholic Church because there wasn't a Christian holiday during this time and tried to get rid of focus from a pagan holiday. I think they should have had faith in their church members to not be influenced by the pagan holidays.

    I honestly would be ok if people celebrated Christmas as a moment once a year to show appreciation on a grand scale that they normally can't do on a day to day basis instead of Jesus's birthday. (Especially since us Christians don't actually know specifically when Jesus was born.) The appreciation would be shown to the ones you love and are precious to you. I believe we forget how precious the ones around are. It would be like Thanksgiving but that's more of a American holiday. There should be a world wide holiday to appreciate loved ones. Doesn't a day where the world takes a day to love one another sound nice? I know some will say that's gay or what ever. Mahatma Gandhi and Martin Luther King Jr have shown how much a positive impact love and peace can have over violence and war.

    • Legacy
    • December 13, 2011, 11:32 pm
    - Legacy December 13, 2011, 11:33 pm
    Also please don't "tl;dr" If you did not care enough to take the time to read, then don't tell me. For those who read and respond with what you think, I appreciate that you took the time to read and your imput is valued. :)
    - Legacy December 13, 2011, 11:36 pm
    Birth of the sun god, thanks.
    - Ertrov December 14, 2011, 12:26 am
    I'm not trying to be rude, I don't exactly know what you mean by your statement because I can't hear tone of voice through the interent. But I think it's a sort of sarcastic sort of tone.

    But yeah, it's interesting. It went from a holiday that celebrates the birth of a sun god to the birth of the Son of God.
    - Legacy December 14, 2011, 12:44 am
    No sarcasm, dude. I was just glad you said that because I had forgotten which pagan holiday it originally was. Read my response to Disco's comment for further info.
    - Ertrov December 14, 2011, 12:50 am
    I see. I really like where this discussion is going. I feel a sense of understanding between one another. That is really hard in a discussion that involves religion. Things like this is a small step towards peace. :)
    - Legacy December 14, 2011, 1:08 am
    thats what i like about this site, we can come and talk/discuss anything with no consequenses and few trolls, almost none now, but ya good discussion, well off to bed with me now that its 4:30 am
    - drakenguard December 14, 2011, 4:30 am
  • 2

    honestly i agree with both of you, personaly i fall under disco's verson of athiest, but knowledge is power

    Oh yeah, knowledge is awesome! It's amazing how good it feels when you realize something and are no longer ignorant of it. Sorry if I get religious but I think that things like the Crusades of earlier times and acts of churches like Westboro Baptist Church is ignorance of what they say they believe.

    So if I'm getting wordy and slightly "philosophical." I told a friend of mine that I have a problem focusing and he gave me a ritalin pill. I'm thinking clearly and mentally energetic. Even though I'm supposed to be doing an 8-10 page paper that's due tomorrow and I'm half way on page 2 and it's 12:21am, I just feel excited sharing knowledge that's popping into my head.
    - Legacy December 14, 2011, 12:19 am
  • 2

    i live in BC canada. its very multicultural here,there are a lot of brown people, and they have a lot of different celebrations that i know nothing about. i try to be multicultural and i join in on there festivities and try to learn about them. im christian and celebrate christmas, but now we have to say happy holidays instead of merry christmas. i think that is a bunch of bullshit.

    Before you read this, understand two things: 1. That I do think it's wrong to be forced to say "Happy Holidays." 2. These are just my thoughts and ideas. Not things that should be set into stone. I am not trying to be a voice that speaks for all

    I can understand the point of view of Christians such as you and I because it is like society is trying to say something that might denounce our faith. But understand from the point of view from those who are not Christian. I actually believe in the happy holidays thing instead of saying merry christmas because, unless you know someone personally, you don't know if a person is Atheist, Jewish, Muslim, etc. It's rude to connect someone to a religion that they do not celebrate. If you do know if they are Christian and celebrate Christmas, or not Christian but still celebrate Christmas, I think we should say "Merry Christmas" to them since we know. But! I only think it's should be out of respect to say "Happy Holidays" to those who's religious stance is unknown to you or is not Christian.

    In fact, if you know their belief, say something that would tell them to enjoy what they celebrate. Like Happy Hanukkah/Kwanzaa for example. I don't know of other Holidays that happen around this time. If someone is an Atheist and doesn't celebrate a holiday, I can currently think of a greeting but I think saying "Happy Holidays" means to enjoy the current season. This season is a good time to say something to someone that conveys a positive message to them because the year is almost over and that can be stressful or even scary for some people. We should do what we can to confort our fellow man.
    - Legacy December 14, 2011, 1:01 am
  • 2

    Fuck it let them do whatever I'll be drunk and happy anyway so what do I care.

    I love the positive thinking! Drink and be merry! :)
    - Legacy December 14, 2011, 1:27 am
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    I'm not Christian, I'm Luna Pack and have been for four or five years now. I still celebrate Christmas with my family (A bunch of devout irish-americans who would sooner kill their kin then miss church on sundays) and we put aside everything for the sake of being together. I don't care who your god is, what your job is, how much you've been through or how young you are, If you give somebody a homemade card or a brand new Ipad, None of it matters to me.

    Maybe Christmas was about Jesus being born, maybe it was some old Pagan holiday converted by the church, maybe it's something Hallmark made up just to sell more shit.

    To me Christmas is only about one thing, being with your family and spending quality time making good memories with those you love, before they go to see whatever god they see fit.

    • Lasain
    • December 14, 2011, 3:45 am
    Forgive my ignorance, but what is Luna Pack?
    - imfrikknbad December 14, 2011, 4:55 am
  • 1

    @gemie89 Sorry if it seems I have over taken your post. I am just very interested in this topic.

    • Legacy
    • December 14, 2011, 1:29 am
    Hey no problem I figured this discussion would take this turn. When I have more time I'll read and respond to almost all of it with my thoughts as well. As long as everyone keeps a level head and arguments are kept civil and with lack of profanity I'll be happy.
    - gemie89 December 14, 2011, 2:23 pm
  • 1

    You guys ever notics that Christmas has Christ in it.

    That doesn't mean that Christmas can only be celebrated by those that believe in Christ.
    - gemie89 December 14, 2011, 3:28 pm
    My dad's first name is Chris and his middle name starts with the letter 'T'. Maybe it's about him. XD
    - CrazyJay December 14, 2011, 8:47 pm
  • 1

    I won't bother with the Atheism rant, because Etrov already did a great job with it. I will add however, that a lot of the pagan traditions that we associate with Christmas (such as the date for example) were merged into the Christian religion during the Roman Empire. Emperor Constantine wanted to create a state religion and to do it, he had to bring Pagans and Christians together. So he merged them. (Keep in mind as well that several different denominations of christianity existed back then.) Whatever Christianity is today is a result of this hybrid religion they invented. This was roughly 1000 years after Jesus allegedly died.

    Like him, I enjoy the holidays too. For me, it's about being able to spend time with family/friends and take time off work/school to do it. Not to mention the abundance of turkey and baked goods is always a plus. As for it being about Jesus, it still is about Jesus for devout Christians. If you are not a devout Christian, it will NEVER be about Jesus because you can't force yourself to believe in him. I couldn't. It means different things to different people. When it is a federal holiday, you can't impose Jesus on to people. (Seperation of Church and State)

    Then there's your conservatives whining about the so-called "war on Christmas". For some reason, these people have it in their heads that political correctness took over, and apparently you have to say "Happy Holidays" just so you don't offend anyone. I have no idea where this notion came from. I've never met anyone who doesn't celebrate Christmas who'd be deeply offended if you wished them a Merry one. Just feels like these people are looking for something to moan about.

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